WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:15.770 Mr. Knut Olaf Nesse. 00:00:15.850 --> 00:00:17.930 Welcome to Gdańsk. Thank you. 00:00:18.010 --> 00:00:21.210 Very pleased to be talking to you today. Thank you for coming. 00:00:21.290 --> 00:00:23.490 I'm pleased to be here, again. 00:00:23.570 --> 00:00:30.410 We're here to talk about the past, about the '80s, about Solidarity, and your 00:00:30.490 --> 00:00:33.130 help to the Solidarity Movement. 00:00:33.210 --> 00:00:34.450 Good. 00:00:35.010 --> 00:00:39.290 Let me start from the very beginning. 00:00:39.370 --> 00:00:43.690 How did you learn about the Solidarity Movement, 00:00:43.770 --> 00:00:46.770 about what was happening in Poland? 00:00:46.850 --> 00:00:48.730 Yeah, that's the first thing. 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:56.650 In the late '70s, I was involved in a student movement in Norway. 00:00:56.730 --> 00:00:59.370 It was a student movement among conservative students, 00:00:59.450 --> 00:01:06.170 and I became the national president of this organization in the late '70s. 00:01:06.250 --> 00:01:13.810 Of course, we were anticommunist, and we wanted to support any effort 00:01:13.890 --> 00:01:18.850 against communism and then when we saw the Solidarity Movement emerging 00:01:18.930 --> 00:01:24.170 in Poland, this was an opportunity for us to focus our efforts and try 00:01:24.250 --> 00:01:26.490 to help in any way we could. 00:01:26.570 --> 00:01:32.050 We didn't really have any student contacts at at the time with Poland, 00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:35.250 so we wanted to find these contacts. 00:01:35.330 --> 00:01:40.490 As the Solidarity Movement grew, we found that it was the right 00:01:40.570 --> 00:01:45.050 time to go to Poland in 1980. 00:01:45.130 --> 00:01:51.250 We went a couple of times in the early 1980s to try to find these 00:01:51.330 --> 00:01:56.530 students of the same opinion as us, basically, in order to support them, 00:01:56.610 --> 00:01:59.410 but also to bring them into our organization, 00:01:59.490 --> 00:02:03.130 because we had an organization of European students, 00:02:03.210 --> 00:02:09.610 like a federation of student organizations in Europe that had a christian-democrat 00:02:09.690 --> 00:02:13.530 and conservative and liberal inclination. 00:02:13.610 --> 00:02:19.090 This was called European Democrat Students, and we wanted the Poles 00:02:19.170 --> 00:02:22.210 to become members of this organization. 00:02:22.290 --> 00:02:29.410 How easy or rather how difficult was it to, first of all, get into the Communist 00:02:29.490 --> 00:02:33.130 Poland, get a passport, and then meet those students? 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:37.210 I imagine it would be quite difficult. 00:02:37.290 --> 00:02:40.770 It took a lot of planning, and we didn't really have any contacts. 00:02:40.850 --> 00:02:47.490 We had some Poles who were living in Norway who were actively supporting 00:02:47.570 --> 00:02:51.250 Solidarity, but we wanted to go beyond Solidarity 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:53.730 and find like-minded students to us. 00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:59.290 We basically offered this contact that we had that we would be 00:02:59.370 --> 00:03:04.570 take some stuff into Poland and said that we would 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:08.370 go by car and that we could bring in anything that he needed to get 00:03:08.450 --> 00:03:11.050 into Poland to support Solidarity. 00:03:11.130 --> 00:03:13.210 He was very happy to hear that. 00:03:13.290 --> 00:03:19.090 He provided us with a contact in Gdańsk that we were to meet. 00:03:19.170 --> 00:03:22.930 He also provided us with some printing presses, 00:03:23.010 --> 00:03:27.970 small printing presses that stand on the desk that you can easily 00:03:28.050 --> 00:03:29.490 fit in the back trunk of the car. 00:03:29.570 --> 00:03:34.050 So he said, these we should bring to Poland. 00:03:34.130 --> 00:03:38.890 In addition to that, there were some small books. 00:03:38.970 --> 00:03:45.010 They were really just almost like a matchbox size. 00:03:45.090 --> 00:03:46.610 It was in all in Polish. 00:03:46.690 --> 00:03:50.170 I didn't really know what was the text in it, 00:03:50.250 --> 00:03:56.530 but I understood that it was some political ideas that they 00:03:56.610 --> 00:03:58.530 wanted to spread in Poland. 00:03:58.610 --> 00:04:06.410 These were big bundles of thousands of small books that we also put in the car. 00:04:06.490 --> 00:04:09.210 Now, we were going there on a student visa or 00:04:09.290 --> 00:04:14.490 on a tourist visa, which was the easiest way to get into Poland. 00:04:14.570 --> 00:04:18.770 We were driving through Sweden to Üstad, and that was going to be our entry 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:21.610 point in Śwunoujście with the ferry. 00:04:21.690 --> 00:04:26.690 We had to plan, get the visa to go to Poland. 00:04:26.770 --> 00:04:29.130 With the visa, of course, you have to exchange a certain 00:04:29.210 --> 00:04:31.490 amount of money every day. 00:04:31.570 --> 00:04:36.090 It's very controlled how you travel within Poland in those days. 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:40.330 You could only buy gasoline to the car with certain tickets 00:04:40.410 --> 00:04:45.490 that you had to buy in special places. 00:04:46.210 --> 00:04:50.930 Of course, if we had been checked at the border 00:04:51.010 --> 00:04:55.210 and they had opened the trunk, they would have seen that we had a 00:04:55.290 --> 00:04:57.810 printing press and these small books. 00:04:57.890 --> 00:05:02.850 We were very exposed to being discovered. 00:05:02.930 --> 00:05:07.890 It was just the luck of the trip that they didn't check us. 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:10.130 They believed our story that we were just students. 00:05:10.210 --> 00:05:15.290 We were going to have some good time in Poland, and that was it. 00:05:15.370 --> 00:05:20.170 They didn't check us at all, and we just could drive in and to Gdańsk 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:28.050 and meet with our contact and establish contact with them and deliver the goods. 00:05:28.130 --> 00:05:29.890 When was it again? 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:33.810 This was late 1979, I would say. 00:05:33.890 --> 00:05:36.610 That's the first trip. 00:05:36.690 --> 00:05:41.410 As I mentioned, we didn't really have any contacts, political contacts, beyond this 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:43.850 one person that we were supposed to meet. 00:05:43.930 --> 00:05:50.330 When we talked to this person, we said who we were, that we were students, 00:05:50.410 --> 00:05:54.930 that we had this organization in Europe, and that we really wanted to find some 00:05:55.010 --> 00:05:58.130 like-minded organization in Poland. 00:05:58.210 --> 00:06:05.690 They talked to us and said that there was an organization like that. 00:06:05.770 --> 00:06:07.690 It was called the RMP. 00:06:07.770 --> 00:06:11.810 I think in Polish, it's Ruch Młodej Polski 00:06:11.890 --> 00:06:13.770 Right. Yes. 00:06:14.650 --> 00:06:18.690 They said to us this was probably the organization that we should 00:06:18.770 --> 00:06:22.090 meet with and establish contact. 00:06:22.170 --> 00:06:27.370 They provided us contact so we could then move on in Gdańsk to meet 00:06:27.450 --> 00:06:34.250 other people that we could then establish a political connection with. 00:06:34.330 --> 00:06:39.770 That's how we met these people, Aleksander Hall 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:43.330 and Maciek Grzywaczewski, 00:06:46.730 --> 00:06:53.370 and Magdalena Modzelewska-Rybicka. 00:06:53.450 --> 00:06:59.090 These are names that we were given at that time when we 00:06:59.170 --> 00:07:03.330 established in contact with these people and met with them. 00:07:03.410 --> 00:07:13.290 We also had a contact in Łódź that was to a guy called Jacek Bartyzel, 00:07:13.370 --> 00:07:16.730 who was a very interesting guy to meet. 00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:19.130 He was a very ideological person. 00:07:19.210 --> 00:07:22.090 He had interesting ideas. 00:07:22.170 --> 00:07:28.490 I think he was a monarchist, but was very well-read in ideology 00:07:28.570 --> 00:07:30.890 and literature in politics. 00:07:30.970 --> 00:07:33.850 It was very interesting to meet with him as well. 00:07:33.930 --> 00:07:37.090 We stayed in his apartment because we didn't really have hotels 00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:39.130 booked for all our stays. 00:07:39.210 --> 00:07:43.690 He invited us to stay in his apartment, and this was a very 00:07:43.770 --> 00:07:46.570 interesting time for us. 00:07:46.650 --> 00:07:55.050 We were political active students in Norway, but we weren't really that, 00:07:55.130 --> 00:07:58.970 let's say, sophisticated in our political ideology. 00:07:59.050 --> 00:08:02.330 We just had ideas kind of 00:08:03.250 --> 00:08:08.530 when we came to meet the people in Poland, 00:08:08.610 --> 00:08:11.090 the students in Poland, of course, they didn't have the freedom 00:08:11.170 --> 00:08:19.690 that we had, but they had much they were much more knowledgeable about 00:08:19.770 --> 00:08:22.450 ideology and about politics than we were. 00:08:22.530 --> 00:08:28.250 For us, it was a learning experience to talk to these young students 00:08:28.330 --> 00:08:35.050 and learn from them about various political thinkers that we perhaps hadn't 00:08:35.130 --> 00:08:38.210 read about or hadn't been involved with. 00:08:38.290 --> 00:08:43.370 That was very interesting for us to learn about their thinking. 00:08:43.450 --> 00:08:45.410 Did you think about the risk? 00:08:45.490 --> 00:08:47.930 I mean, with the printing presses and the publishing materials, 00:08:48.010 --> 00:08:51.170 did you think about the risk? 00:08:51.250 --> 00:08:54.690 Yeah, we thought about the risk and we thought, Okay, what's the best 00:08:54.770 --> 00:08:57.450 way to not get caught? 00:08:57.530 --> 00:09:01.490 But of course, we were also students and we were carefree, 00:09:01.570 --> 00:09:08.890 and we thought, Okay, if somebody's going to do it, it might as well be us. 00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:11.210 We kind of have nothing to lose. 00:09:11.290 --> 00:09:15.970 If they put us up in jail for a night or two or send us back, 00:09:16.050 --> 00:09:19.570 it wasn't really a big consequence for us. That's what we thought. 00:09:19.650 --> 00:09:23.370 We said, Okay, we will take the chance and bring it in. 00:09:23.450 --> 00:09:29.570 We went back another trip as well with more, let's say, illegal stuff 00:09:29.650 --> 00:09:32.730 that we got from our contacts in Norway. 00:09:32.810 --> 00:09:39.130 We felt that we had a good handle on how to get in and how to get out. 00:09:39.210 --> 00:09:45.050 Getting out was also a bit tricky because we had asked our contacts 00:09:45.130 --> 00:09:47.690 for an interview with 00:09:47.770 --> 00:09:51.450 Lech Wałęsa we provided them with a tape recorder 00:09:51.530 --> 00:09:54.570 and a tape, and it says, please ask him these questions. 00:09:54.650 --> 00:09:56.730 It was a list of questions. 00:09:56.810 --> 00:10:03.130 They met with him and they interviewed him and gave us the tape. 00:10:03.210 --> 00:10:07.730 As we were crossing out again, we thought, Okay, if we have this tape 00:10:07.810 --> 00:10:12.650 with the interview of this political leader, they would probably stop 00:10:12.730 --> 00:10:17.850 and question us and maybe detain us as we were leaving. 00:10:17.930 --> 00:10:20.770 We discussed, where are we going to put this tape? 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:24.650 Where will they be looking for it? 00:10:24.730 --> 00:10:27.650 We decided to put it back in the tape recorder. 00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:30.570 It was sitting in the tape recorder in the back of the car. 00:10:30.650 --> 00:10:34.170 As we drove back into Sweden, we didn't get checked, 00:10:34.250 --> 00:10:37.130 and nobody found out about that. 00:10:37.210 --> 00:10:40.250 How many trips did you take altogether? 00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:48.330 In this time, we took two trips, but also as a result of our visits, other 00:10:48.410 --> 00:10:51.050 students in the organization made trips. 00:10:51.130 --> 00:10:56.210 Other students or organizations within the European Democrat Students made trips. 00:10:56.290 --> 00:11:00.290 We established very good contact with the RMP, 00:11:00.370 --> 00:11:05.330 and we invited them to come to one of our conferences. 00:11:05.410 --> 00:11:08.490 Of course, they were, I guess, an illegal organization, 00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:13.810 and they couldn't travel freely, so we had to organize this in a special way. 00:11:13.890 --> 00:11:18.610 The way it was done was that we had a conference in Italy, 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:23.250 in Cadenavia, by lake Como. 00:11:23.330 --> 00:11:28.570 There is a, Konrad Adenauer Foundation conference center there. 00:11:28.650 --> 00:11:35.330 This is the Christian democrat let's say, organization or foundation in Germany, 00:11:35.410 --> 00:11:40.170 and they could invite people for religious conferences and also 00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:45.370 for relatively, let's say, innocent meetings, 00:11:45.450 --> 00:11:48.450 not political meetings, and that's how it was done. 00:11:48.530 --> 00:11:52.610 So Maciek and, I think, Magdalena were invited, 00:11:52.690 --> 00:11:57.690 and there was an official invitation from the Konrad Aerdenau Foundation, and 00:11:57.770 --> 00:12:03.330 they provided travel, travel cost for them. 00:12:03.410 --> 00:12:08.050 And so they were invited to this villa where the conference was, and that's 00:12:08.130 --> 00:12:10.650 where they met the organization. 00:12:10.730 --> 00:12:14.290 I think that was in '83 when that happened. 00:12:14.370 --> 00:12:15.730 '83? 00:12:16.010 --> 00:12:17.770 '81. '81 okay. 00:12:17.930 --> 00:12:19.370 Eighty-one. 00:12:19.570 --> 00:12:25.250 This was a really good start to the organization and its 00:12:25.330 --> 00:12:31.090 contact to the students in Poland, and we wanted them to become members. 00:12:31.170 --> 00:12:33.490 This was our objective. 00:12:33.570 --> 00:12:39.210 The majority of the organization really wanted to have a Polish member. 00:12:39.290 --> 00:12:43.730 But we saw this, of course, as a possible conflict, 00:12:43.810 --> 00:12:49.610 because if we had a illegal Polish organization as a member, 00:12:49.690 --> 00:12:54.890 this could be problematic for us either to travel or to have conferences. 00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:58.130 It would be difficult for us to invite this organization to our 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.170 meetings and so on. 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:07.410 But we still wanted to go ahead because we thought this was ground-breaking. 00:13:07.490 --> 00:13:16.170 We also saw that they were very interested in having this contact with us. 00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:20.530 We had a proposal to admit them as a member 00:13:20.610 --> 00:13:23.810 of the organization, and we managed to get them in. 00:13:23.890 --> 00:13:28.810 There was only one of our member organizations protested, 00:13:28.890 --> 00:13:31.410 and I guess you can guess which one that was. 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:34.690 This was the member organization from Finland. 00:13:34.770 --> 00:13:39.130 They were still, let's say, into this Finlandization 00:13:39.210 --> 00:13:45.450 mindset, and they thought that this will disrupt the balance of power 00:13:45.530 --> 00:13:49.050 and the peaceful coexistence that we have with the East. 00:13:49.130 --> 00:13:51.410 And so let's not rock the boat. 00:13:51.490 --> 00:13:53.450 It was their attitude. 00:13:53.530 --> 00:13:56.850 But still, we managed to get the Polish organization. 00:13:56.930 --> 00:13:59.370 They have recently changed their minds, Finland. 00:13:59.450 --> 00:14:01.250 They have now changed their minds. Yeah, luckily. 00:14:01.330 --> 00:14:08.170 So it's good to get Finland back in the fold and being part of the Western Europe. 00:14:08.250 --> 00:14:15.570 Do you remember as a student coming over into the behind the Iron curtain seeng 00:14:15.650 --> 00:14:20.690 in Poland, which was, compared to Norway, I'm sure, much poorer, 00:14:20.770 --> 00:14:24.330 the state of the roads, the houses, the shops. 00:14:24.410 --> 00:14:27.210 Was that a shock or was that not a shock for you? 00:14:27.290 --> 00:14:29.930 Yes, it was a shock. 00:14:30.010 --> 00:14:38.330 You saw the poverty is very obvious to you, and road conditions were not perfect. 00:14:38.410 --> 00:14:44.650 Of course, the old city of Gdańsk was not rebuilt in any way that it is today. 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:49.450 I remember one incident where our car actually broke down, 00:14:49.530 --> 00:14:51.290 and I thought, Oh, my. 00:14:51.370 --> 00:14:52.970 How are we going to get this car fixed? 00:14:53.050 --> 00:14:58.090 Because I thought they wouldn't have any spare parts for a Volvo. 00:14:58.170 --> 00:15:03.410 It was an old Volvo that I had, and this was the main drive that was broken, 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:05.610 and we couldn't go anywhere. 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:08.970 We talked to our contacts, and they said, no worries. 00:15:09.050 --> 00:15:11.770 We're going to help you. 00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:14.170 The next day, the car was fixed. 00:15:14.250 --> 00:15:15.730 I don't know where they took it. 00:15:15.810 --> 00:15:21.890 I don't know how they got the part, but it was really interesting how this, 00:15:21.970 --> 00:15:27.450 I guess, black economy worked or this helping attitude that people would help 00:15:27.530 --> 00:15:31.730 each other and make sure that life could go on. 00:15:31.810 --> 00:15:37.690 Of course, we saw these big supermarkets which had nobody in them. 00:15:37.770 --> 00:15:39.930 And of course, they only had one product. 00:15:40.010 --> 00:15:43.810 It was a tin can of some peas or something, and that was 00:15:43.890 --> 00:15:47.050 stocked row by row. 00:15:47.130 --> 00:15:49.490 That was quite funny. 00:15:49.570 --> 00:15:51.970 Was that your food for the trip? 00:15:52.050 --> 00:15:54.890 We could go to restaurants. 00:15:54.970 --> 00:16:01.570 Of course, we had to exchange foreign currency, and we got a lot of złotych for that. 00:16:01.650 --> 00:16:05.490 We could go to restaurants and have good meals that maybe Polish people 00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:07.050 couldn't afford at the time. 00:16:07.130 --> 00:16:08.450 We were not really rich. 00:16:08.530 --> 00:16:12.610 We were students, but the exchange rate was so favorable 00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:19.530 that we could order wine and good food, and we felt that this was a great treat. 00:16:19.610 --> 00:16:24.050 Also, we had dollars extra that we wanted 00:16:24.130 --> 00:16:30.450 to exchange, and we didn't want to do it in the official exchange 00:16:30.530 --> 00:16:31.570 places. 00:16:31.650 --> 00:16:35.970 We would try to find somebody in the street who would exchange for us. 00:16:36.050 --> 00:16:39.490 You would get a lot more złotych if you did that. 00:16:39.570 --> 00:16:44.970 We tried that a couple of times, and we did quite well. 00:16:45.050 --> 00:16:51.210 But I remember one time I exchanged $100, and I was certain that I was going to make 00:16:51.290 --> 00:16:54.130 sure I got all the złotych that he had told me I would get. 00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:57.850 We counted and counted and counted, and then I counted. 00:16:57.930 --> 00:17:02.290 For some reason, he also also wanted to count it at the end. 00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:04.610 So he counted again, and I said, Okay, that's good. 00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:05.970 He gave me the wad of money. 00:17:06.050 --> 00:17:08.730 So we walked away, and it took me only a minute to realize 00:17:08.810 --> 00:17:12.090 that it was only one, two, and five złotych, and there was nothing more. 00:17:12.170 --> 00:17:15.930 So he had totally ripped me off. 00:17:16.010 --> 00:17:18.330 But that was a fun experience. 00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:20.490 That was where in the street or where was that? 00:17:20.570 --> 00:17:23.530 Yeah, it was usually around the corner from hotels. 00:17:23.610 --> 00:17:26.610 That's where they would hang out because that's where the tourists were. 00:17:26.690 --> 00:17:30.930 They would offer. 00:17:31.010 --> 00:17:32.410 They would tell you, You want to change money? 00:17:32.490 --> 00:17:34.210 whisper in your ear. 00:17:34.290 --> 00:17:36.570 And so that's what we did. 00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:40.210 Did you, by any chance, try those peas? 00:17:40.290 --> 00:17:42.450 You said there were just jars. Yes. 00:17:42.530 --> 00:17:44.770 No, we didn't try those peas. 00:17:44.850 --> 00:17:48.170 And I said, there were nobody in the stores. 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:52.210 But then you saw other places where there were hundreds of people 00:17:52.290 --> 00:17:54.090 lined up for something. 00:17:54.170 --> 00:17:56.810 You would go up and ask them, What was this line for? 00:17:56.890 --> 00:18:00.410 And you found out that that's where you could get some real stuff. 00:18:00.490 --> 00:18:03.250 You could get bread or whatever it was. 00:18:03.330 --> 00:18:05.610 They were lines in various places. 00:18:05.690 --> 00:18:11.730 We also learned from our friends that you could actually stay in 00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:13.850 several lines at the same time. 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:17.570 There was a special system, whereas if you wanted to go this line 00:18:17.650 --> 00:18:20.530 to get this, you could also be there, and at the same 00:18:20.610 --> 00:18:21.610 time, you could be in another line. 00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:26.890 So we were quite impressed how that was organized. 00:18:27.530 --> 00:18:32.770 So you were a student back then, and I would imagine, 00:18:32.850 --> 00:18:37.690 even being a Norwegian student, it's not being a Norwegian successful businessman. 00:18:37.770 --> 00:18:42.290 So I understand that as a student, you didn't have a lot of money. 00:18:42.370 --> 00:18:46.730 You maybe had money for food, for a beer, as students do, usually. 00:18:46.810 --> 00:18:51.530 It's not that they're very rich, middle-aged, middle-class people yet. 00:18:51.610 --> 00:18:55.450 So tell me about how you organize the money for the trip, 00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:59.690 for the ferry, for gas, for your Volvo, and stuff like that. 00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:05.250 Well, in the organization was called the Norwegian Conservatives 00:19:05.330 --> 00:19:06.570 Student Federation. 00:19:06.650 --> 00:19:14.450 I was on the board and I said, this is something that the organization should 00:19:14.530 --> 00:19:21.450 sponsor because we were doing this in order to make contacts to Polish students. 00:19:21.530 --> 00:19:24.970 So we asked them to provide us with some funds. 00:19:25.050 --> 00:19:31.010 And this organization was financially supported, partly by government funds 00:19:31.090 --> 00:19:34.210 and partly by funds from the Conservatives Party. 00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:37.450 They had some money available for this. 00:19:37.530 --> 00:19:42.850 That's how we got money to pay for the travel and so on. 00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:47.890 This was very helpful for us to get the trip organized. 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:51.690 How long did you spend altogether on the first trip? 00:19:51.770 --> 00:19:54.210 I think we were there for about two weeks. Two weeks? 00:19:54.290 --> 00:19:56.730 Yeah, and the second trip, and we went back out again. 00:19:56.810 --> 00:20:04.450 We came in at Świnoujście, and we also went back at and drove back to Norway. 00:20:04.530 --> 00:20:08.210 The second time we went, we came in in Sweden and Austria, 00:20:08.290 --> 00:20:15.570 but we drove through Poland and visited Kraków, and then we drove out 00:20:15.650 --> 00:20:20.610 in the south and went over to, I guess it was Czechoslovakia, 00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:23.610 and then into Switzerland, where we had a meeting in the summer 00:20:23.690 --> 00:20:26.930 of our student organization. 00:20:27.010 --> 00:20:35.530 I remember as we were driving south, we had these tickets that we 00:20:35.610 --> 00:20:38.530 had to use for gas, gasoline. 00:20:38.610 --> 00:20:41.170 These were Polish tickets that you would get somewhere. 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:42.410 Yes, you would have to buy them. 00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:46.650 You could buy them in the hotels or in special government places where 00:20:46.730 --> 00:20:51.050 you could exchange for dollars. You can get these tickets. 00:20:51.130 --> 00:20:55.450 Because if we went to the gas stations, they will not sell you gas. 00:20:55.530 --> 00:20:57.450 That was the law. They couldn't sell you gas. 00:20:57.530 --> 00:21:02.970 But we had found out that If you went in and told them, Look, 00:21:03.050 --> 00:21:10.250 I'll pay you double the gas price, and I'll pay you in złotych, then they were 00:21:10.330 --> 00:21:12.850 inclined to let you have the gas anyway. 00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:14.450 That was a fair deal. 00:21:14.530 --> 00:21:17.250 That worked really well when we were in Gdańsk and in Warsaw. 00:21:17.330 --> 00:21:22.130 Then we traveled south and we got into the countryside and we were running 00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:26.170 low on gas, and then we stopped at the gas station and said, Hey, can you 00:21:26.250 --> 00:21:27.890 give us gas for złotych? 00:21:27.970 --> 00:21:30.170 We'll pay two or three times the rate. 00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:32.890 He said, no, didn't want to do that. 00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:36.650 I said, Okay, what about four times or five times? 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:38.850 Still, he didn't want to do it. 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:43.770 Then we continued and the gas was getting lower and lower. 00:21:43.850 --> 00:21:49.370 I said, no, we really got to stop somewhere and find some gasoline. 00:21:49.450 --> 00:21:53.970 We got to one gas station, and I think finally, we offered him 00:21:54.050 --> 00:21:56.410 dollars instead of złotych. 00:21:56.490 --> 00:21:59.490 Then we got the gas so we could pass through the border 00:21:59.570 --> 00:22:02.850 and get to Czechoslovakia. 00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:06.570 Tell me about how many people came with you. 00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:07.810 What was the group? 00:22:07.890 --> 00:22:09.490 How huge was the group? 00:22:09.570 --> 00:22:12.290 There were three of us. 00:22:12.370 --> 00:22:15.730 With one car, there was good room for three 00:22:15.810 --> 00:22:17.970 and some of the stuff we had to bring. 00:22:18.050 --> 00:22:24.210 Also on the next trip, we were also three people on the trip. 00:22:24.290 --> 00:22:29.970 As I understand, you were not aware at any time that you were followed or were 00:22:30.050 --> 00:22:37.130 harassed by the customs, the police, the military, secret service, whoever. 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:39.650 Or were you aware of that? No. 00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:47.090 We were not at any time stopped, as far as I remember, by anyone. 00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:53.210 We didn't have many contacts, so we got from one contact, 00:22:53.290 --> 00:22:55.170 we got a contact to the next person. 00:22:55.250 --> 00:22:56.970 We never used the telephone. 00:22:57.050 --> 00:23:01.570 Of course, cell phones were not used at that we never 00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:03.850 went on the phone to call anybody. 00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:09.410 If we got close to the address, we might leave the car because it was 00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:16.970 a foreign car, and then one of us would walk up to the address around 00:23:17.050 --> 00:23:21.370 the corner or the next street over and then ring the doorbell there because 00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:27.050 we didn't want to expose them to having contact with us. 00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:30.930 We tried to be as careful as we could. 00:23:31.010 --> 00:23:34.050 We didn't feel like we were followed. 00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:39.290 Maybe we were, but we didn't realize that at the time. 00:23:39.370 --> 00:23:41.650 Those two weeks, what did you do? 00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:43.890 How did you spend your time? 00:23:43.970 --> 00:23:50.450 First of all, when we got to Gdańsk and later to Warsaw and Łódź, 00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:54.890 the students we met took us around and gave us sightseeing. 00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:58.650 We had private tours around the city. 00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:00.530 That was a a lot of fun. 00:24:00.610 --> 00:24:05.530 They invited us also home to their places, and we would have small parties 00:24:05.610 --> 00:24:08.010 or things that student do. 00:24:08.090 --> 00:24:16.450 We would sit there and chat and drink beer and really get to know them in that way. 00:24:16.530 --> 00:24:17.850 That was a lot of fun. 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:23.050 We had many evenings like that and also days when we did sightseeing 00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:24.890 with our friends. 00:24:24.970 --> 00:24:26.370 Did you discuss politics? 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.650 Did you talk about what's happening with Europe, with the Soviet Union? 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:32.170 We did discuss politics. 00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:35.010 They were very interested in discussing politics. 00:24:35.090 --> 00:24:40.010 As I said, they were quite educated and well-read, much more than us. 00:24:40.090 --> 00:24:44.410 They could discuss really political thinkers that we had maybe heard 00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:46.330 of but never we've ever read about. 00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:52.450 We felt that we were always a little bit behind or a little bit ignorant of big 00:24:52.530 --> 00:24:56.170 political ideas, but they were very eager to discuss with us. 00:24:56.250 --> 00:24:58.010 We did, too. 00:24:58.090 --> 00:25:02.730 We discussed how things were in our countries, how we lived, 00:25:02.810 --> 00:25:07.170 and how the government worked, and they explained how it was in Poland. 00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:12.250 We also discussed the future. 00:25:12.850 --> 00:25:20.130 I remember that they were we were thinking of the East and West and the Iron 00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:23.370 curtain as something we couldn't change. 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:27.570 We wanted to get contacts with the students, 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:32.970 but we didn't think that the political change would come 00:25:33.050 --> 00:25:34.690 in our lifetime, let's say. 00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:39.890 We were a lot less, let's say, optimistic about the future. 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:46.890 But our friends who we met, they really believed that 00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:54.850 change would come, I think even in their lifetime. 00:25:55.090 --> 00:25:58.290 That was very interesting. 00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:10.370 That also gave us hope in a way and made us 00:26:11.570 --> 00:26:19.530 realize that we had to help them and promote them and help any change. 00:26:20.730 --> 00:26:25.010 It seems like it was a life-changing experience in a way for you. 00:26:25.090 --> 00:26:26.570 Yes, it was. It was. 00:26:26.650 --> 00:26:27.930 How? 00:26:28.610 --> 00:26:35.770 Well, as I said, I guess it was this optimism. 00:26:37.250 --> 00:26:44.850 Yeah, also the sophistication, I think, 00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:50.050 in their thinking was quite impressive. 00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:54.690 I think we learned a lot from them. 00:26:58.330 --> 00:27:03.998 I think hopefully we helped them, 00:27:04.198 --> 00:27:10.010 but I think perhaps the recognition 00:27:10.090 --> 00:27:11.370 for them was important. 00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:13.884 We also had a.. 00:27:14.084 --> 00:27:17.130 Do you need a break? 00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:19.170 No, it was just emotional. I understand. 00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:22.170 I get emotional. Just listening to you, I get emotional. 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:23.850 That's why it's so important to talk about it. 00:27:23.930 --> 00:27:32.650 But we also, after they became members, At this time, I don't know if you know, 00:27:32.730 --> 00:27:39.370 but there were some talks between youth organizations 00:27:39.450 --> 00:27:42.210 of Eastern Europe and Western Europe. 00:27:42.290 --> 00:27:50.610 These were meetings where the Russians, the Soviet organization, really wanted to 00:27:50.850 --> 00:27:56.210 get Western European youth organizations into their fold, to tell them that 00:27:56.290 --> 00:28:01.970 socialism, communism wasn't so bad, that we felt it. 00:28:02.050 --> 00:28:07.290 We were invited because all European student and youth organizations 00:28:07.370 --> 00:28:09.530 were invited to these talks. 00:28:09.610 --> 00:28:13.490 But we always, as a Conservative, Christian Democrat, 00:28:13.570 --> 00:28:19.410 liberal organization, we didn't really feel that these talks produced anything. 00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:28.450 It was statements at the end that really talked about nothing and just said that 00:28:28.530 --> 00:28:35.010 everything is fine in Europe, peace and harmony. 00:28:35.090 --> 00:28:40.570 They had all these Western organizations, youth organizations signing on to these 00:28:40.650 --> 00:28:48.330 statements that basically were totally void of any political content. 00:28:48.410 --> 00:28:54.330 We said, Okay, if we're going to talk about peace, let's 00:28:54.570 --> 00:29:01.650 also make sure that the deployment of Soviet nuclear missiles 00:29:01.730 --> 00:29:06.210 in Eastern Europe, that this is mentioned, 00:29:06.290 --> 00:29:11.490 that this is stopped, that we want the stop of expansion 00:29:11.570 --> 00:29:16.770 of atomic weapons and specifically mentioning this. 00:29:16.850 --> 00:29:19.890 Of course, this was a big political no-no. 00:29:19.970 --> 00:29:22.890 The Russians, the Soviets would not accept that. 00:29:22.970 --> 00:29:30.450 But we pushed on to get these things included and also saying that people 00:29:30.530 --> 00:29:35.650 Eastern Bloc should live in freedom and have political freedom and so on. 00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:40.930 We just wanted these things to be raised at the meeting and pushed for these 00:29:41.010 --> 00:29:43.570 to be included in the final statements. 00:29:43.650 --> 00:29:46.890 We never managed to do that, but at least there was some political 00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:54.290 debate, and we then objected, typically, to the final statement. 00:29:54.370 --> 00:29:59.890 This was, of course, something that the Soviet organization didn't like, 00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:02.090 that they wanted everybody to agree. 00:30:02.170 --> 00:30:03.650 They wanted big harmony. 00:30:03.730 --> 00:30:10.170 When we objected to the final statement, they felt that this was unsuccessful, 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.810 this conference was unsuccessful. 00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:18.330 Then the other time, when we had the Polish members, 00:30:18.410 --> 00:30:20.290 we could bring them along, too. 00:30:20.370 --> 00:30:24.930 We would then bring along our Polish organization to these meetings. 00:30:25.010 --> 00:30:30.090 Of course, the Soviets and the East Bloc Youth Organization were totally shocked 00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:35.930 to see these, I guess, so-called illegal or opposition 00:30:36.010 --> 00:30:39.610 organizations being represented in these meetings. 00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:40.770 It was a big upset. 00:30:40.850 --> 00:30:48.130 For us, it was a big success to bring them into the meetings and to show 00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:54.850 really how Europe was and that there were other voices in Europe 00:30:54.930 --> 00:30:56.690 than the communist ones. 00:30:56.770 --> 00:31:02.010 We were very happy that we could bring them along to these meetings. 00:31:02.210 --> 00:31:06.090 I understand as a student, you come here, you witness what's happening, 00:31:06.170 --> 00:31:12.170 you see with your own eyes the state of affairs in communist Poland. 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:16.970 I understand it sort of convinced you that 00:31:17.050 --> 00:31:19.690 your views, your political path was right. 00:31:19.770 --> 00:31:22.690 I mean, Conservatives versus the Leftist. 00:31:22.770 --> 00:31:28.530 I don't know the Leftist fascination with either Communists as an idea or 00:31:28.610 --> 00:31:33.570 with the Soviet Union I'm sure there were Communist students in Norway. 00:31:33.650 --> 00:31:38.610 Yes, and it also gave us, call it ammunition, 00:31:38.690 --> 00:31:43.410 when we came home to debate the situation in Eastern Europe with other students 00:31:43.490 --> 00:31:48.290 in our home country because we had first-hand information 00:31:48.370 --> 00:31:49.210 about the situation. 00:31:49.290 --> 00:31:53.810 We had contacts in Poland, so we could, with more authority, 00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:58.770 talk about the situation, what it was like and what people wanted over there. 00:31:58.850 --> 00:32:02.850 This helped us in our political activities at home. 00:32:02.930 --> 00:32:10.410 But also this optimism that I mentioned that the Poles had brought really to us as 00:32:10.490 --> 00:32:15.650 well, optimism about things that things could change in Europe. 00:32:15.730 --> 00:32:20.370 Do you know or did you know or do you know how those printing presses and those 00:32:20.450 --> 00:32:22.330 printing materials were used? 00:32:22.410 --> 00:32:25.250 What did they do with them? Do you have any idea? 00:32:25.330 --> 00:32:29.450 No, we didn't follow up on that. 00:32:29.530 --> 00:32:32.850 I think they They were going basically to the Solidarity Organization, 00:32:32.930 --> 00:32:35.210 and we were bringing them in. 00:32:35.290 --> 00:32:40.450 They were not going to our group as far as we remember, because we didn't really 00:32:40.530 --> 00:32:43.170 have any contacts when we left Norway. 00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:46.210 Those contacts were established when we came. 00:32:46.290 --> 00:32:49.010 Of course, when we came the second time around, 00:32:49.090 --> 00:32:54.530 then we could go back to our contacts and provide them with things that they needed. 00:32:54.610 --> 00:33:01.210 We would also prepare the ground for them 00:33:01.290 --> 00:33:03.930 to become members in our organization. 00:33:04.010 --> 00:33:07.890 We would share our ideological platform with them. 00:33:07.970 --> 00:33:14.530 We would discuss more specifically how we could have them as members, 00:33:14.610 --> 00:33:20.210 and and so the second time around was more focused on our contacts. 00:33:20.290 --> 00:33:25.570 I understand you come here, you establish contacts, then you leave, 00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:27.530 but you try to maintain the contacts. 00:33:27.610 --> 00:33:30.930 There's no text messages, there's no email. 00:33:31.010 --> 00:33:32.450 How did you do it? 00:33:32.530 --> 00:33:34.730 And was it easy or was it difficult? 00:33:34.810 --> 00:33:36.610 It was quite difficult. 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:41.730 I mean, you wanted to be very careful about sending letters. 00:33:41.810 --> 00:33:48.170 So the contacts were very often made by people visiting. 00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:52.050 In our organization, the European Organization, 00:33:52.130 --> 00:33:55.850 European Democrat students, we would then communicate with other 00:33:55.930 --> 00:33:59.890 member organizations who were going to Poland, and then we would 00:33:59.970 --> 00:34:04.130 provide them with the contacts that we had established and say, 00:34:04.210 --> 00:34:10.010 This is what they need, and this is the communication we need to provide them. 00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:15.290 That's how our organization, with many members, could 00:34:15.370 --> 00:34:21.690 provide, could have couriers or students who went in and met with them personally. 00:34:21.770 --> 00:34:28.570 For example, when they were invited to come to the EDS meeting, I think 00:34:28.650 --> 00:34:32.130 someone went there personally with the invitation and handed 00:34:32.210 --> 00:34:35.490 it to them so that we were sure that they got it. 00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:41.330 Also to provide them with travel tickets or to travel was also important. 00:34:41.410 --> 00:34:45.970 We met them personally to provide this. 00:34:46.050 --> 00:34:51.250 At that time, did you go anywhere else within the Soviet Bloc? 00:34:51.330 --> 00:34:53.370 No, but not I. 00:34:53.450 --> 00:34:58.250 But our member organization, European Democrats, students, had contacts 00:34:58.330 --> 00:35:02.010 in other Eastern Bloc countries as well. 00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:06.050 But it was always more difficult because they didn't have this 00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:11.330 movement that had started, so it was more difficult to find your contacts there. 00:35:11.410 --> 00:35:17.050 It probably also was more risky in the other Eastern Bloc States. 00:35:17.130 --> 00:35:22.970 We didn't have any organization that we could integrate other than 00:35:23.050 --> 00:35:26.410 the one in Poland at that time. 00:35:26.490 --> 00:35:27.690 Right. 00:35:27.770 --> 00:35:30.450 I wanted to ask you about the martial law. 00:35:30.530 --> 00:35:32.890 The martial law was introduced in 1981. 00:35:32.970 --> 00:35:35.370 Did it come as a shock to you? 00:35:35.450 --> 00:35:38.130 And what did you do as an organization? 00:35:38.210 --> 00:35:42.050 Did you try to help out in any way to the people you knew here? 00:35:42.130 --> 00:35:44.090 I assume you were worried. 00:35:44.170 --> 00:35:45.890 Yes, we were worried. 00:35:45.970 --> 00:35:51.530 The martial law came after we had been there, and I think also after 00:35:51.610 --> 00:35:55.170 they had become members in EDS. 00:35:55.250 --> 00:35:57.890 It was at the end of December '81, right? 00:35:57.970 --> 00:35:59.090 It was the martial law. 00:35:59.170 --> 00:36:03.770 And I think it was a shock because it was a setback. 00:36:03.850 --> 00:36:09.530 We thought that the Solidarity movement would gain ground and that eventually it 00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:16.010 would open more up and this was going to be the way that things would continue. 00:36:16.090 --> 00:36:19.450 Then when the martial law came, we all felt that this was a big setback. 00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:26.050 Of course, our contact to the RP became much more difficult. 00:36:26.130 --> 00:36:31.570 You really had to think twice before you exposed them because there was much 00:36:31.650 --> 00:36:34.690 more risk for them at this time. 00:36:34.770 --> 00:36:41.530 It was a shock, and it did set back our contact, but we managed to maintain it. 00:36:41.610 --> 00:36:46.810 Of course, today, the organization still is a member. 00:36:46.890 --> 00:36:49.970 We have a vibrant Polish membership, and they're very active 00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:52.490 in this organization today. 00:36:52.570 --> 00:36:59.610 Did you get any feedback at the time from Ruch Młodej Polski? 00:36:59.690 --> 00:37:02.010 Did they tell you how much you helped them? 00:37:02.090 --> 00:37:03.090 In what way? 00:37:03.170 --> 00:37:06.810 How did your visit change things for them? 00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:08.770 Yes, they did give us feedback. 00:37:08.850 --> 00:37:10.570 I think they really appreciated the contact. 00:37:10.650 --> 00:37:16.010 I think for them, it was also important to have contact abroad because 00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:19.730 some of them were living in exile. 00:37:19.810 --> 00:37:23.810 We met with people who were living in Paris or were living in other 00:37:23.890 --> 00:37:29.530 countries, and they could always be helped by our member 00:37:29.610 --> 00:37:30.890 organization as well. 00:37:30.970 --> 00:37:36.330 I think they appreciated it. 00:37:36.410 --> 00:37:41.010 I think they are themselves the ones who really did the big struggle. 00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:44.810 But I think we provided some 00:37:44.890 --> 00:37:55.090 I guess, some contact and some, I guess solidarity. 00:37:55.290 --> 00:37:59.890 They knew that we were there and that they could ask us for help if they 00:37:59.970 --> 00:38:02.450 they needed it and so on. 00:38:02.530 --> 00:38:09.450 I think we felt we were appreciated and valued in our work. 00:38:11.330 --> 00:38:15.370 Thinking about it today, I'm sure you think it's worth it 00:38:15.450 --> 00:38:21.570 for a young person, for a student to think about politics, to get involved, 00:38:21.650 --> 00:38:26.930 to know about what's happening in the world as you did as a young person? 00:38:27.170 --> 00:38:29.570 Yeah, I think it's very important. 00:38:29.650 --> 00:38:34.250 I think now, today, there are other battles. 00:38:34.330 --> 00:38:39.690 There are other frontiers where students can go or young people 00:38:39.770 --> 00:38:43.570 can go and make a change. 00:38:43.650 --> 00:38:53.290 I think what we learned was that, I guess, things don't need to be the way they are. 00:38:53.370 --> 00:38:55.250 They can change. 00:38:56.770 --> 00:38:59.610 I think anyone can be part of that change. 00:38:59.690 --> 00:39:07.050 I guess that's the message to the young people today. 00:39:07.130 --> 00:39:12.850 Thinking back to 1989, the free elections and then the collapse of the... 00:39:12.930 --> 00:39:16.170 I mean, the free elections in Poland and the collapse of the Berlin Wall, 00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:22.090 the collapse of the Soviet Union, was that also? 00:39:22.170 --> 00:39:26.410 I mean, it was obviously a life-changing experience for millions of people within 00:39:26.490 --> 00:39:31.090 the block here, but for you yourself, your friends in Norway? 00:39:31.170 --> 00:39:34.410 How did you perceive this? 00:39:34.490 --> 00:39:35.810 No, this was a big, big change. 00:39:35.890 --> 00:39:43.050 As I said, we learned to be optimistic 00:39:43.130 --> 00:39:46.290 from our Polish contacts. 00:39:46.370 --> 00:39:50.850 When this finally happened, we just couldn't believe it because 00:39:50.930 --> 00:39:53.290 things were unfolding so quickly. 00:39:53.370 --> 00:40:00.050 We saw that we really had this idea that the Eastern block would implode, 00:40:00.130 --> 00:40:01.330 that it couldn't carry itself. 00:40:01.410 --> 00:40:05.290 It wasn't sustainable. 00:40:05.370 --> 00:40:10.770 Even if we tried to do things to make it go faster and to make things change 00:40:10.850 --> 00:40:13.130 quicker, it was really inherent. 00:40:13.210 --> 00:40:20.690 I guess we realized in the Eastern block, that this had to collapse or change. 00:40:20.770 --> 00:40:23.130 When it actually happened, and it happened in our lifetime, 00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:26.050 I think we were very happy. 00:40:26.130 --> 00:40:31.170 Certainly for people in the Eastern block, but also for the rest of of Europe 00:40:31.250 --> 00:40:37.290 and the rest of the world. This was a big, massive political change. 00:40:37.370 --> 00:40:43.330 Even today, we tend to forget how important it 00:40:43.410 --> 00:40:45.450 was and how big a change it was. 00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:46.930 We have wars today. 00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:52.170 We have Ukraine, of course, and things that are really bad 00:40:52.250 --> 00:40:54.930 things that we need to sort out. 00:40:55.010 --> 00:40:58.090 We need to have Ukraine victorious in their fight. 00:40:58.170 --> 00:41:02.450 But But the fact that all of Eastern Europe 00:41:02.530 --> 00:41:07.570 really came out of the Iron curtain and became 00:41:07.650 --> 00:41:12.210 democratic countries at that time was really a massive change. 00:41:12.290 --> 00:41:16.570 I think other political issues are smaller, even though 00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:17.290 they're very important. 00:41:17.370 --> 00:41:22.490 But this change was really, I think, the change of the century. 00:41:22.570 --> 00:41:24.690 It was. 00:41:24.770 --> 00:41:30.090 When was the first time that you came back here into free Poland after the collapse 00:41:30.170 --> 00:41:33.610 of communism as a free citizen into the free country? 00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:40.570 Yes, I think I came back here in the 00:41:40.690 --> 00:41:44.330 late '90s, came back to visit Poland 00:41:44.410 --> 00:41:55.050 and Gdańsk and see the change and also see how people had grabbed this freedom and 00:41:55.490 --> 00:42:01.890 formed their own future and their own destiny and also how eager they were 00:42:01.970 --> 00:42:05.850 to join the other European countries. 00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:11.330 They were very eager to get into the European Union. 00:42:11.410 --> 00:42:15.010 When that also happened, we felt that things were moving 00:42:15.090 --> 00:42:20.210 a and in the right direction and giving Poland an opportunity to participate 00:42:20.290 --> 00:42:24.970 and contribute to, I guess we would say, 00:42:25.050 --> 00:42:26.690 building a new Europe. 00:42:27.330 --> 00:42:28.770 Did you make friends for life? 00:42:28.850 --> 00:42:32.850 I mean, are you friends with with the people that you met back in '79? 00:42:32.930 --> 00:42:37.130 Well, I really appreciate their friendship at the time. 00:42:37.210 --> 00:42:42.210 I think we have been out of contact for a long time, and 00:42:42.290 --> 00:42:49.210 I haven't been so much in contact with all of my friends in the last years. 00:42:49.290 --> 00:42:59.050 But when I came a couple of years ago, I wonder if it wasn't the last year, 00:42:59.130 --> 00:43:01.610 or I came to this museum. 00:43:02.610 --> 00:43:04.210 Here? Here, yes. 00:43:04.290 --> 00:43:07.130 This is a wonderful museum. 00:43:07.210 --> 00:43:14.410 I walked along the exhibits, and we came to the part where 00:43:14.490 --> 00:43:16.850 it was about the students. 00:43:16.930 --> 00:43:19.810 The students, yeah. 00:43:22.930 --> 00:43:25.530 It's very emotional. 00:43:25.610 --> 00:43:33.490 Yeah, it is. I saw the photos of all my friends there. 00:43:41.210 --> 00:43:41.810 Okay. 00:43:41.890 --> 00:43:47.090 In a nutshell, what happened to you later in life? 00:43:47.410 --> 00:43:54.370 Yes, later in life, I finished my engineering degree and I had 00:43:54.450 --> 00:43:57.730 a career as an engineer in the first part of my career. 00:43:57.810 --> 00:44:05.930 I traveled, I lived in the Netherlands, I lived in Switzerland, and eventually, 00:44:06.010 --> 00:44:11.130 I did an MBA and changed my career into working for the Norwegian 00:44:11.210 --> 00:44:12.890 government as a diplomat. 00:44:12.970 --> 00:44:14.610 I was a Trade Commissioner. 00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:19.170 I was a Trade Commissioner for Norway in Canada, later in Germany. 00:44:19.250 --> 00:44:24.730 That was how my career turned out. 00:44:24.810 --> 00:44:29.730 Of course, I always remember my student days, and I was always 00:44:30.090 --> 00:44:33.890 Yeah, proud of what we had done. 00:44:33.970 --> 00:44:38.930 It was fun to talk about it and to come back and visit these countries 00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:44.690 and represent Norway, but still trying to work together 00:44:44.770 --> 00:44:48.370 with other countries in Europe and Canada. 00:44:48.450 --> 00:44:53.490 That was a very interesting development of my career. 00:44:53.570 --> 00:45:01.250 I'm now retired, and as you heard, I'm now lecturing on board cruise ships. 00:45:01.330 --> 00:45:09.690 I'm engaged with Viking Ocean Cruises, and I lecture on history for guests on board. 00:45:09.770 --> 00:45:13.770 I love to sail in this itinerary, which I'm on right now, 00:45:13.850 --> 00:45:17.450 which is the Baltic, where we start in Stockholm and we visit 00:45:17.530 --> 00:45:23.970 Gdańsk and present Gdańsk and polish history as well on the ship. 00:45:24.050 --> 00:45:29.810 It's fun to finish that circle in a way. 00:45:29.890 --> 00:45:34.730 When you think about those two trips that you 00:45:34.810 --> 00:45:44.170 took to Poland in the '70s and the '80s, now as a reasonable man, former diplomat, 00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:47.490 do you think, well, that was reckless. That was crazy. 00:45:47.570 --> 00:45:51.490 We could have got caught, or I don't know, we could have gotten arrested, 00:45:51.570 --> 00:45:53.930 or something could have happened to us. 00:45:54.010 --> 00:45:58.570 We were crazy young people from this perspective. 00:45:58.650 --> 00:46:04.410 Yeah, I think we we were probably crazy young people, and we wanted to 00:46:04.490 --> 00:46:08.370 do something, and we didn't always think about the consequences. 00:46:08.570 --> 00:46:16.850 Of course, today, you would be probably more careful, but I think it was worth it. 00:46:16.930 --> 00:46:19.810 We achieved something. 00:46:19.890 --> 00:46:26.970 Looking back, I don't think I have any regrets, let's say, that we went there. 00:46:27.050 --> 00:46:31.090 But I think it probably was reckless, but I I don't think the consequences 00:46:31.170 --> 00:46:34.530 for us would have been so grave. 00:46:34.610 --> 00:46:38.130 Probably we would have been kicked out of the country or maybe detained for a day 00:46:38.210 --> 00:46:46.690 or two, but it was much more risky for the people we met. 00:46:46.770 --> 00:46:48.730 Well, thank you very much for the interview. 00:46:48.810 --> 00:46:51.290 Thank you very much for helping out back then, really. 00:46:51.370 --> 00:46:51.610 Thank you. 00:46:51.690 --> 00:46:54.170 I'm so happy to be here and share my story. 00:46:54.250 --> 00:46:56.290 Thank. You for talking to us. 00:46:56.370 --> 00:46:57.570 Thank you. Good luck. 00:46:57.650 --> 00:46:59.010 Thank you.